Did some test drives today, and narrowed my vehicle search

"gmctavish needs more space" (gmctavish) 09/02/2020 at 22:22 • Filed to: test drive

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I didn’t take any photos, so internet photos will have to do I’m afraid. I did painstakingly find the correct colours of the ones I drove.

A Chrysler dealer let me know that they got a manual 2018 2 door Wrangler traded in, so I made an appointment to test it out, as well as an 2020 auto V6 2 door.

The 2018 6 speed was a blue Sport, with power windows, locks, a hardtop, and the upgraded infotainment whatever.

I was really looking forward to driving this. I thought it was a good candidate for a direct replacement of the Raider, while being safe, comfortable, and road-trippable to be a V70 replacement as well. All that went out the window as soon as I pushed the clutch in. Good lord if that isn’t the worst clutch I’ve ever felt. The pedal resistance changes halfway through the travel, and there is zero feedback whatsoever. No idea if I’m at the friction point unless I look at the tach. I drove it for 3 blocks and turned around, there was no point driving it anymore. I have no idea how anyone can stand these, it’s like trying to use an on-off switch as a clutch. And then there’s the rev hang.

Next up was the 2020 auto.

This one was pretty bare bones, the only options being the automatic and the hardtop. I liked it much, much better than the 6 speed, I’m sorry to say. The ride is really nice, especially for such a short wheelbase, and especially for solid axles front and rear. The pentastar feels pretty good, I don’t love it but it makes good power and is reasonably smooth. The side mirrors are great, visibility overall is great. Didn’t notice any squeaks or rattles. Seats are comfy. Now for the not good. The rear view mirror creates a blind spot because the windshield is so short. The main issue is the transmission. I was expecting to like it, because when I drove my friends Wrangler off road, it was great. On road, however, it’s indecisive, a bit jerky, and just generally shifts too much. The suspension rides smooth but the transmission un-smoothens the ride. It also has even less cargo room than the Raider, which is far from ideal.

Now for the 4Runner. I couldn’t find a TRD Off-Road to test, but one dealer did have a Venture Edition, which is a TRD Off-Road Premium with TRD Pro wheels, “ rock sliders” with steps hanging off them , a roof basket, and like 7 grand added to the price tag. But most importantly it had the Bilsteins and KDSS, which is what I wanted to test out.

Oh man. This was like a whole different league of vehicle than the Jeeps. I was not expecting it to feel so much better. First of all, the fit and finish is noticeably better, looks wise and feel wise. It feels much more solid, the door close sounds and feels better, the seats are more comfortable, the switchgear feels better. There are cubbies and storage areas all over, the seats fold nicely, the room in the back really is massive and versatile. It has a nice big sunroof.

Now for the driving

It feels cohesive, and refined. The engine and transmission, while old, are very well matched. It has lots of low end torque, it shifts totally smoothly, it wafts along with little effort despite its heft. I know I’m comparing IFS to a solid axle, but the steering is so much better, it has really lovely steering. The ride was far nice than I thought possible with a solid axle in the back. I know I’m comparing a longer wheelbase to a shorter, but the 4Runner wheelbase is shorter than the 4 door Wrangler. It feels like a truck, it feels substantial, but it doesn’t wallow or jiggle. It’s very composed, like the suspension and brakes are more than enough for it instead of just enough. It’s weirdly nicely handling for its weight. It doesn’t feel nearly as big as I thought it would, it just feels the right amount of big, like enough to be confidence inducing.

Last was a Tacoma. I can’t find a manual Tacoma to test drive, and I’m told not to expect one anytime soon, so I figured why not drive and auto while I’m waiting.

A nearby dealer just got a 2019 TRD Off-Road access cab, which is what I was hoping to drive.

It seemed almost as well put together as the 4Runner, but not quite. The doors were not very solid feeling to close, the shifter had more play in it. That’s what I was expecting out of a less expensive vehicle with utility being the primary purpose. What I wasn’t expecting was for the drivetrain to feel so unmatched. It was similar to the automatic Jeep, the transmission was indecisive, shifting a bit too often, and it seemed to need too much gas to get going, like it was geared for an engine with more low end torque. The steering was a lot heavier than the 4Runner, and almost seemed to fight you a bit, I wonder if it’s electric and not tuned very well. It was also surprisingly jiggly. I expect some jiggling out of a vehicle with rear leafs, but even so it seemed like too much jiggling. Overall I was surprised how different it was from the 4Runner, and how much less cohesive it felt.

I still want to drive a Frontier Pro-4X, but no one has one, and no one wants to help me find one to test drive, even though I think it would be a strong contender. It also has a 4L V6 and a 5 speed auto, and it’s on and old platform. maybe I’ll love it too, and it’s a lot cheaper.

TL;Dr, I drove four 4x4s, I only liked the 4Runner. I liked it a lot. I want one. They’re stupid expensive, and more vehicle than I need most of the time, but damn did I like driving it. I’m gonna be spending a lot of time watching for used 4Runner Trails and TRD Off-Roads.

Just Jeepin' > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:30

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I’ ve definitely heard mixed reviews on the clutch in the JLs. That’s a shame.

You might try another one, a new one, just to make sure that’s not something that was particularly screwed up on y our first one.

CB > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:32

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Once again cementing the thought of “bUt MaNuAl” is absurd: just because it’s manual doesn’t mean it’s good.

I thought long and hard about a 4Runner. Yeah, they cost arms and legs, but they’ll probably last longer than the arms and legs would.

gmctavish needs more space > Just Jeepin' 09/02/2020 at 22:33

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The sales guy I was dealing with said he’s driven others and feels the same way. Apparently some people love it, but he also can’t stand it. Maybe it’s not so bad for people used to newer manuals, but I think the newest manual I’ve driven before this was from 2009. And that was a Mustang, I imagine the trans/clutch situation had been the same since the 90s. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:35

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This isn’t at all surprising, but I guess your impression explains the values of old 4Runners.

HammerheadFistpunch > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:36

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The 4runner is Japanese built and will be top notch quality, even compared to the Tacoma (which is baja or texas built). They are very popular for a reason - the are built well, they off-road well, and they fit in the sweet spot for size between the 2 door and 4 door jeeps and broncos. They need the 8 speed in these yesterday, same with the Tacoma, I can’t for the life of me figure out why they wont. Its about the size of the 6 speed so conversion wouldn’t be an issue. kills me.

Just Jeepin' > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:36

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Thbbbbt. I guess I should take one on a test drive sometime. Maybe if/when I someday buy a used Gladiator I can actually aim for an auto instead of begging someone to sell me a stick.

gmctavish needs more space > CB 09/02/2020 at 22:37

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Yeah, I was pretty set on a manual, either JL or Taco, right up until I pushed that pedal in. I was so relieved to be back in the Raider with a clutch I can actually feel. And yeah, the ancient 5 speed auto in the 4Runner is a really lovely thing.

True, I don’t like the idea of spending close to 50 grand on a vehicle, if I can even swing it, but it would be a reliable, practical, do-anything vehicle for as long as I want. My aunt traded in her 96 4Runner with 480k on it, and it was still reliably running every day up in Fort  St. John. I’m hoping I can get like a 2017 or so for closer to 40 than 50. 

gmctavish needs more space > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/02/2020 at 22:37

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Yeah, I get it now 

gmctavish needs more space > HammerheadFistpunch 09/02/2020 at 22:40

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Right right  I forgot the Tacoma wasn’t built in Japan. I’ve never driven anything with Toyotas 8 speed, but comparing the 5 speed in the 4Runner to the ZF 8 speed, I’d take the 5 speed. It has the torque to easily move itself without always shifting, which I really like. 

HammerheadFistpunch > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:43

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You should try it paired to the V8. oh man. every time I drive the GX I think “if I could put this drivetrain in the 80 series it would be a perfect vehicle”

HammerheadFistpunch > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:45

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have you considered a lightly used GX460?  might give it a drive.  6 speed instead of 5. full time 4wd with torsen, same chassis, same suspension and KDSS, plus V8.  

gmctavish needs more space > HammerheadFistpunch 09/02/2020 at 22:47

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I’ve thought about it, but I don’t really want even worse fuel economy between the V8 and the full time 4wd.  Do they have a rear locker?

HammerheadFistpunch > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:50

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You wont get worse fuel economy. I mean, maybe a little but fractional. No rear locker unfortunately. Depends on how you will use it. Mine isn’t setup to really wheel since the 80 does those jobs but I’ve never found a spot a on a trail a stock 4x4 should be on the GX470 couldn’t do.

ATRAC isn’t as good as it could be, but it’ s pretty good.

gmctavish needs more space > HammerheadFistpunch 09/02/2020 at 22:55

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Really? That’s surprising/impressive. Or just indicative of how not great the 4Runners fuel economy is.

That’s a bummer, but I suppose air lockers are a thing if I found myself unhappy with traction. I’d even be happy with an LSD, I just don’t want an open diff since the Raider at least has a rear LSD and it’s definitely helped sometimes 

HammerheadFistpunch > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 22:59

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Neither truck gets good economy, you will get 15-17 around town and 18-20 highway. Might as well have the V8 IMO.

I can tell you that ATRAC and crawl control will be night and day compared to even an LSD on a non-managed system. And yeah ARB has you covered if you want to get locked.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 23:02

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I have done Toyota at the autoshow a couple times, I drove a few into the hall, I woul dn’t mind a TRD Pro but I can only have one modern DD vehicle so it has to be like my Acura for the MPGs. But they are sweet. 

gmctavish needs more space > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/02/2020 at 23:11

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My commute is short so I can deal with okay mpgs. Honestly it’s the same mileage as my V70 and the Raider.  It’s also cheaper than repairing and insuring an extra vehicle for off-road purposes, I think. I guess I should properly do that math. The car payment would be the big change...

The Ghost of Oppo > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 23:16

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If you are looking at used Tacomas there are tunes geared towards improving the transmission shift points, if you are looking at new ones Toyota apparently did it themselves with the 2020 updates. I’ve been watching Tacoma inventories around me for a while and rarely see manuals, but back in M ay there were like 8 of them between 3 local dealers. I could kick myself for not going for a test drive.  

gmctavish needs more space > The Ghost of Oppo 09/02/2020 at 23:26

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Well that’s interesting, I might have to check out a 2020 in case it makes enough of a difference. Thanks for the heads up 

onlytwowheels > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 23:28

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Have you considered testing a ZR2? I would be interested in how it compares to the Taco from an average person’s perspective.

Nothing > gmctavish needs more space 09/02/2020 at 23:30

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I like  my 4Runner. I don’t have much to add, but I picked up a new full size mattress for my son the other day, and it fit. The hatch even closed.

Overall, it can definitely struggle a bit at altitude when loaded up, but is otherwise fine. It felt awesome when I was driving around flat, sea level area back in NY. I’ve thought about selling mine recently (surprise) but mainly to use the equity elsewhere and replace it with an older GX, FJ, or Sequoia. It would probably be a bad decision to do so. It’s such an “easy” vehicle mechanically, has aftermarket (if a bit pricey), and has been made relatively unchanged for a decade. About the only thing I’d change on mine would be to dump the sunroof for the extra headroom. I even use the third row often enough now to make it worthwhile.

gmctavish needs more space > onlytwowheels 09/02/2020 at 23:59

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I wanted to, but they’re too expensive. I loved my old Blazer, but if I’m buying a Chevy instead of a Toyota, the Chevy needs to be cheaper than the Toyota. I might still check one out in case I like it more than the Tacoma, or even the 4Runner, but it would have to be closer to 40k  than 50k

onlytwowheels > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 00:16

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https://www.motionchevrolet.com/VehicleDetails/new-2020-Chevrolet-Colorado-Extended_Cab_Long_Box_4_Wheel_Drive_ZR2-Hackettstown-NJ/4618849933

Some dealers are taking $5k off or more.

gmctavish needs more space > onlytwowheels 09/03/2020 at 00:49

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Not up here that I’ve seen, but I’ll take another look 

onlytwowheels > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 00:52

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I did a search on the Chevrolet website, set a 250 mile radius. Lots of low to mid $40k ZR2. Skip the Bison and most options for this pricing level.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 00:55

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A high school friend’s father got a Plymouth Breeze in manual (c.1996 ). I drove it a time or two and 25 years later  I still remember how awful the clutch was, snappy just as you describe.

gmctavish needs more space > onlytwowheels 09/03/2020 at 01:43

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I’m up in Canada though, 40k for you is more like 50k for me 

onlytwowheels > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 01:57

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I did not realize that. Pricing on a ZR2 here is still a bit less than 4Runner TRD Off Road Premium.

I’d recommend searching used and CPO for one.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 05:40

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Ford Ranger? Ford Oz developed the platform using the VW Amarok as the benchmark....so it handles very very well. Can't speak for the driveline and I've never got on with the form factor but they'd have to be worth a look...

avalonian > HammerheadFistpunch 09/03/2020 at 08:14

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Honestly, even a 6 speed in 2017 would have been satisfactory. Would have easily pushed fuel economy into the Mid 20's hwy. I’ m hoping the new 2021-2022 4runner will be better in that aspect. 

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 08:58

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I liked the 4Runner , but the tech/option packages didn’t match up the way I wanted and the pricing drove me away. Also, I found it a bit slow in accelerating compared to the others that I c onsidered. If you can stomach the price, you may want to look at a Grand Cherokee . I really liked the one that I drove with the V8 , even though I went in a different direction.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 10:02

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The indecisive transmission in the Tacoma was exactly why I bought the manual (which is not perfect, by any means, but at least it will stay in the gear I desire). I test drove a Pro-4x manual before getting my truck, and the manual was not nearly as good as the one in the Tacoma.

My Tacoma drivetrain dislikes: 6th gear is too short, reverse is too long, and rev-hang is super obnoxious (hoping to fix with tune soon). First gear is very low, but normal for a truck.

I like my truck a lot , but I don’t love it (yet). I bought it because I wanted a smaller truck with a manual (will be teaching my teen drivers on it). It’s the Swiss Army Knife of vehicles - not the best at anything, but does a wide variety of things well. The plan is to keep it in the family for 15 years; we’ll see if love comes after a few modifications.

gmctavish needs more space > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 09/03/2020 at 13:04

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I read some  questionable things about the 10 speed they have, and I’m assuming the 2.3 turbo needs premium, but I could be wrong about that. I could at least go check one out though since I’m looking at everything else 

adamftw > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:27

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I’m pretty much settled on the 4Runner myself.

adamftw > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:27

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That combo is the best powertrain in mid size trucks. Doesnt need premium.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/03/2020 at 13:29

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Infotainment kills the GX for me. I wish there was an easy way to retrofit the Prado’s 4Runner-esc dash into one.

gmctavish needs more space > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 13:30

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I hadn’t considered the GC, the 4Runner is a bit of an outlier in my search because of its size. I just did some reading on the GC though and I’m surprised how good the ground clearance is, and that you can get a  2 speed transfer case on the base model. I don’t think I’d get one though, I don’t know if I could trust it to go to far flung places like I could trust a Toyota 

Aremmes > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:31

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The 2.3 EcoBoost in the Ranger is tuned for at least 87-octane fuel .

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 09/03/2020 at 13:31

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yeah, thats the real bummer.  me?  I couldn’t care less so I guess there’s that.  So long as my phone pairs and sends music Im happy as a clam.  

gmctavish needs more space > adamftw 09/03/2020 at 13:31

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Not the best when it comes to reliability, from what I’ve read there have been issues and/or recalls with the 10 speed.

Ooh so that means the Bronco won’t need premium. Excellent.

gmctavish needs more space > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 13:35

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Hmm maybe I do have to hunt down or wait for a manual to test drive then. I don’t like the sound of the rev hang, it was awful in the Jeep, but it wouldn’t be too bad if it could be tuned out.

What did you dislike about the Frontier?

hedbutter > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:37

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I will say that the gladiator smoothed out a bit over time once it learned my driving style. I’m at around 6k miles now, and i havent noticed any issues with it. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:43

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If you don’t really need a truck, I think I’d just get the 4Runner, honestly. But it never hurts to take another test drive, I guess.

The Frontier I drove was exactly what I thought I wanted before I test dro ve it, but the drive was just terrible. It had non-OEM tires on it, so maybe that contributed, but th at transmission belongs in a tractor. It’s possible that I got a bad one, I guess . I drove an manual Xterra afterward, and I remember the transmission being bad, but not quite as bad.

gmctavish needs more space > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 13:46

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I don’t need one, but I do like the idea of a slide in camper being an option at some point.

That’s too bad. I wonder how it would compare to the transmission in the Raider, that one wouldn’t be out of place in a tractor either 

gmctavish needs more space > hedbutter 09/03/2020 at 13:47

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Auto or manual? 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 13:54

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That’s the good and bad about the Tacoma. It is, at the core, just an old-fashioned truck (body on frame, 4x4, manual, leaf springs in the back).

Makes it better suited to do some old-fashioned truck things, but worse when it comes to ride comfort, etc.

Another mod I need to make is to the seats. Already have some risers for the front I’m going to install (I’m 6'1" with a 34" inseam, and don’t think I’m getting enough thigh support), and I may take it to an upholsterer at some point to add some more lumber support and bolstering (not something you should have to do when you buy a new truck... ).

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 14:14

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I really lust after a 4Runner but the space it takes up makes it a hard sell for me...  But still, I feel like its a car I could run for 20 years...

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 09/03/2020 at 14:23

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I used to be like that, bluetooth was fine. But o nce you have CarPlay, you can’t go back.

adamftw > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 14:24

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Like most new stuff it seems. I haven’t researched it much since I’m not considering pickups. I have a friend who has one and loves it.

HammerheadFistpunch > adamftw 09/03/2020 at 14:24

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Im sure I’d like it, j ust not enough to sway me away from mechanical preference.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 14:38

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Yeah, the reliability was going to be a gamble if I got the GC . The Outback  only slightly improved my odds in that category.

gmctavish needs more space > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/03/2020 at 15:45

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It’s definitely bigger than I need, and want most of the time. But when I look at it as being my versa tile, practical, fallback, do-anything vehicle for the next 20 years, it wouldn’t hurt to have too much space instead of too little. It would be the winter daily, road trip vehicle, off-roader, parts runner for broken projects, pick up heavy and bulky shit, lend it to my dad when his car needs work, etc. Damn the price is hard to swallow though. Just trying to picture that spread over 20 years haha

gmctavish needs more space > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 15:47

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If Subaru made the Forester with a 2 speed transfer case, I think that’s what I’d be going for. My Legacy was great in the snow, but didn’t have the torque to do anything off road and steep

hedbutter > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 17:49

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Auto

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 17:50

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I am all greenlit for a 4x4 now. A JL Unlimited is probably still the top contender , but the 4runner is a close second.

Have you looked at gladiators? 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > gmctavish needs more space 09/03/2020 at 18:05

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The 10 speed down here is hooked up to a 2.0 litre twin turbo diesel engine rather than your gas engine so it’s no guide. I do know that Ford has had issues with the autobox and transfer case behind the 3.2 litre TDi. However , the 10 speed is the same transmission as the one found in the C8 so you’d have to hope for something decent!

gmctavish needs more space > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/03/2020 at 20:13

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Gladiators are too spensive, too long, and too long wheelbase. I might test drive an unlimited but I don’t think I’ll like the trans any better. I think it’ll be between a 4Runner and the new Bronco